Not sure the connection you're making with the verse you quoted and the statement made afterward. Although both are true, I'm just not seeing what you are saying. Could you elaborate a bit more?

As for my take on the two statements:

My take on that verse is that as joint heirs in Christ we can join with Him in the victory of being World overcomers which is why He tells us to be of good cheer.

One change I would say for your statement that follows is that our hope is not in the world to come, our hope is in Christ who will bring us to that world to come. Otherwise, I agree with your statement.

Were these supposed to refute anything I have stated, or are we just finally seeing more eye to eye?

Either way, it's good to discuss this with you brother. How about we put it on hiatus though now that the discussion with Eric has begun. Would that be okay? Then next week if you want to pick it back up again you can feel free to do so. Sound good?

All things are put on hold while the patron saint of the SM community is w/us!

there is no time for this 'idle chit chat' right now!

You can get this cd rather cheap, I just ordered one.

http://www.amazon.com/Glo-Bal-Split-Lev ... 608&sr=1-1

Before giving my opinion, I will say that I am currently an (atheistic) agnostic, no longer a christian. Might be important to some of you.

One big question I have on this topic: if you believe that christian faith healings are true and from god, can you simply state that faith healings outside christianity are false, or works from the devil? It's an opinion I often have heard, and which I can merely consider an extreme result of bias. I used to believe that way, I'll admit, before I started thinking about it. At some point, I decided to stop for a moment listening to what christians/the church said, and take a moment to actually consider what Jesus said about it.



Note that the pharizees would in all likeliness have considered the 'jesus cult' as either another religion, or a heretic cult. Like a christian might view a Jehova's Witness or even a Muslim. If a christian denounces miracles outside his own religion, he basically speaks from the same point of view the pharizees used. The discussion there being that '"foreign" miracles come from the devil'. Jesus, interestingly, did not just say that his, or just christian, miracles come from god. His words imply that any form of healing is benevolent, and against Satan, and can therefore not be from Satan. Next, therefore they must be from the Spirit. Next, anyone who denounces the works of the Spirit, is very, very wrong. He goes on to say that any good work must come from good hands (implying a believer) and every bad work from bad hands (an unbeliever).

If you consider these words truthful, then I see no way to escape the outcome, that any form of healing would come from the Spirit, and that he who calls any of these healings the work of Satan, blasphemes against the spirit. This would be quite heavy, for many christians do seem to do this. Many christians judge people and their actions by their faith. Jesus on the other hand teaches to judge people and their faith by their actions. If this is true, then here is a major error, clearly.

As for my personal considerations nowadays: I doubt faith healings. I have seen many cases where people prayed for years to be healed, and never were healed. What is more, is that a very large part of 'faith healings' seems closely related to the placebo effect. People believe they feel better, and since their mind feels better they feel better. Obviously, the disease itself remains, but people get the strength to go on, sometimes even to fight off an illness, which also is relatively normal it seems. Like making people smile seems to help somewhat in fighting off illnesses. Basic psychology one might say. Still, I will not state that all faith healings are incorrect, I entertain the possibility that some are genuine. I simply see no reason to find it very-likely. Most documented faith healings I know of are described in religious books. Those I can no longer trust as 'independant research'. I am not convinced of biblical healing stories, like I am unconvinced about Greek mythological healing stories; indeed, I am quite distrustful about modern pharmaceutical research as well, for good reasons. Some stories may be fully true, it's possible. Many may misrepresent facts, or be incomplete. Did a lame men have his walking capabilities restored? Or were they already there, but did he simply never have the faith to try walking, until a rabbi convinced him he could walk? Simple questions which obviously cannot be answered. This is without mentioning the option that things may be made up. Science continually finds new knowledge. We know people can seem dead while they are still alive. It would still be special for a man in an old civilisation to recognize the difference, certainly.

Finally, if faith healings are real, then another question is, what is their nature? Is god summoned to cure an illness? If so, is it in every religion the same god (/divine spirit) who does so, or do several different gods cure their subjects? Alternatively, may it be so that such healers have an innate ability that allows them to cure illnesses? Many cultures consider the human system partly based on energy flows, if some people are born with an ability to manipulate those flows, they may be able to heal others, or even simply reativate the body's defense system against an illness. Another option is that it's not innate, but an aquired skill (or possibly both). There are many examples of people learning skills to manipulate their body to do things we consider impossible (monks from the far east are especially known for such abilities). And in yet more cases, might it simply be an experience-based understanding of nature? Like people of all times have known healing powers of many herbs, and only we are starting to learn that for instance some plant poisons can cure people with certain afflictions, which allows us to mass manufacture the substances and sell them under patented, expensive brand names. Point being, that many of the old healers may simply have been those with much knowledge about healthcare, using herbs and rituals like we use medication and therapy. Why did Jesus put mud on a blind man's eyes? If it was the spirit who healed, that mud had no value at all. Whether such questions are relevant, of course, depends on what you wish to learn.

In the end, I feel relying on faith for healing is a method often proved wrong. Many died praying without god helping at all. I know of no explanation on this that doesn't contradict the bible at some point. Then again, I know the Bible contradicts itself at times, as any human book, so that's not surprising. I know some christians can supposedly heal others. I know some non-christians can supposedly do the same. I know many atheists die of illnesses. I know many christians die of illnesses and claiming it is 'gods will'- read again from Matthew 12 and consider what that would imply. In the end, I feel it is not that relevant. Illness is unfortunately part of life. If lucky, we have our good years before it ends. If wise and lucky, we enjoy those good years fully. Our society is growing more and more dependant on healthcare. Often, we can consider that good. But in the progress we start fearing death so much, that we are willing to give up anything for it. Like an ancient king doing unspeakable things in hopes of becoming immortal. Often with modern faith-healing, it's not even about the healing. It's about accepting the illness [as gods will]. That is what gives peace, and that in turn is what may make people happy.If you wish a 'christian' expression at the end, remember that often when jesus cured people, his focus was not on curing. But on forgiving their sins.